IS SOCIALISM ACHIEVABLE IN IRELAND

[irishsoldierladdie]

as socialist, i would love to see Ireland convert to socialism, however, in recent years Ireland has become more and more capitalist and styles itself on Britain both economically and politically.in nearly every community no matter how small, super macs or MacDonald's can be found.pound shops adorn most towns and everywhere "sweat shop" sports clothing can be seen.most youths my age,drink,smoke and even do drugs,they have been exposed to a society that is full of cheap luxuries.home cooked food has been replaced with fast food, small local- family run shops have been shifted by faceless corporations willing to exploit the poor.the youth of today is so used to having everything at their beckoned call,and being able to get something for nothing.cheaply manufactured good have flooded Ireland's economy and are sold with huge profit margins for capitalist(sometimes British) companies.all this is achieved off the back of the working class who are exploited day in day out.in a world where money rules everything and everybody wants it,where having the latest fashion item replaces the need for anything else, and where all anybody wants to do is make money quickly and easily(which often involves drugs and crime)i think that the achievement of a socialist republic of Ireland is becoming less and less of a possibility,unless thing start to change rapidly and drastically,then things do not look good for Ireland.i think it is no good to say "capitalism will run its course"-it will be too late by then,the country will be ruined,we must take action now

beir bua

[RedFlag32]

irishsoldierladdie said:

as socialist, i would love to see Ireland convert to socialism, however, in recent years Ireland has become more and more capitalist and styles itself on Britain both economically and politically.in nearly every community no matter how small, super macs or MacDonald's can be found.pound shops adorn most towns and everywhere "sweat shop" sports clothing can be seen.most youths my age,drink,smoke and even do drugs,they have been exposed to a society that is full of cheap luxuries.home cooked food has been replaced with fast food, small local- family run shops have been shifted by faceless corporations willing to exploit the poor.the youth of today is so used to having everything at their beckoned call,and being able to get something for nothing.cheaply manufactured good have flooded Ireland's economy and are sold with huge profit margins for capitalist(sometimes British) companies.all this is achieved off the back of the working class who are exploited day in day out.in a world where money rules everything and everybody wants it,where having the latest fashion item replaces the need for anything else, and where all anybody wants to do is make money quickly and easily(which often involves drugs and crime)i think that the achievement of a socialist republic of Ireland is becoming less and less of a possibility,unless thing start to change rapidly and drastically,then things do not look good for Ireland.i think it is no good to say "capitalism will run its course"-it will be too late by then,the country will be ruined,we must take action now

beir bua

The very fact that all of this is happening only strenghtens our call for a socialist society,People are getting sick and tired of all of what you have just expressed and it will come the time when the people will look for an alternative.You say that waiting for capitalism to run its course isnt good enough and we must act now,Socialism is npt there to be won by the various socialist parties/organisations, its there waiting for the people to use it,the objection of socialist parties/organisations is to educate the people,unite them,and guide them so that they can destroy capitalism and all its in-equality,It doesnt have to come about through armed rebellion either,but it is in our interest to have armed men and women ready to step in to defend the workers if the capitalists wish to attack them,just like the Irish citizen army did.

I know you would not think twice about fighting for a United Ireland but that (in todays current political climate) seems un-achieveable also.So Why not put the same energy in creating a society that the people of ireland can all live in with equal rights and not as slaves as you do in fighting for a united Ireland?

It will take centuries probably for this country to achieve fully the socialist ideals,it wont happen over night,people will still hold on to there greedy attitudes but you will see a slow but steady acceptance of the socialist system in place and with that realisation that greed doesnt run society anymore,alot of the nasties of society will fall by the way-side,abuse of drugs,money rules,materialism all will stop because the society which they need to survive is gone.

If something is un-achieveable,it doesnt make it pointless to struggle for.Im sure people said the same about slave labor,but that evil in society was done away with!

[irishsoldierladdie]

I'm not saying that because of all these reasons stopping socialism,that we shouldn't struggle for it.anything but...i mean, hurdlers jump hurdles,if there wasn't anything in our way, it wouldn't be struggle,i just think that there needs to be some major re-organization in Ireland for socialism to even be a possibility, i also think that fighting for socialism(in an armed sense) undermines socialism completely, i think that when the time is right we must refer to the people of Ireland that there is a choice.-socialism is more important now than ever before, what with globalization spreading like the plague and capitalist drug-dealers gripping our communities,we must strike now

beir bua

[Papa C.]

Some great posts and points there lads. I think its excellent that we can challenge each other to think hard about actions that NEED to be taken.

I think elitist governments of Ireland have slowly but surely coerced people, through the education system and media, into a money grabbing, back-stabbing, dog eat dog type of attitude. Socialism is the underdog but we have to do our best to educate people about socialism and the benefits it has for the Irish people both north and south.

The internet medium is a great tool for the Capitalist/ Imperialist but it's an even greater tool for Socialism! It's a lot harder, for them, to twist our words online. We just have to convince people that we're truthful and honest and that socialism is of great benefit to normal working people.

People know that Capitalism is wrong as all the problems people face in Ireland today are products of a Capitalist society but they can't see an alternative. They think that socialism involves one-party dictatorship, extremely high taxation and feel they will lose out financially as they are just barely keeping their heads above water as it is.

Socialism in its most fundamental terms is social ownership of land and business. In a capitalist society, where profits are high (usually for one or two small parties), wages and benefits for workers are always low. Socialism would be the opposite.

Short of a socialist style form of government, I, personally, think a good start to building socialism in Ireland would be through business. Multinational corporations are taking over Ireland through business, we should counter this business style of imperialism the same way.

If the socialist community were to open small to large businesses working on a socialist basis, it would counter the International corporations in Ireland. If we were to offer a high wage/ low profit business model for Irish workers, open the books and create excellent working conditions, this would really allow people to see socialism working and would certainly have an impact on Multinationals.

But the problem to doing this would range from Government taxes to raising the money to build the businesses. I know a number of people who have had problems opening small businesses because of the amount of money they had to pay to private developers and the government, yet somehow multinational corporations escape the same taxes.

Does anyone else think this is a valid idea? I'd love if we could discuss ideas for this in greater detail. I'll make this a sticky too as it's a great thread. Fair play IrishSoldierLaddie!

[irishsoldierladdie]

caoimhain,that is a great idea, if an alternative is provided, a physical functioning alternative to the money grabbing businesses that reign in ireland to day, then people will be able to see the difference first hand.like you say, finances might be a problem, as well as this capitalist governments might find a way to snub us out,eg-higher taxes,no grants, refusing trade links etc....i think as well as this we should take a stance against globalisation e'g-only using local builders/plumbers etc...only buying from local stores not buying clothes from companies operating "sweat-shops", buying from and supporting local farms.after all the basis of socialism is that the people who produce the wealth of the world,should control it.so if we boycott globalization and only support local-entities then i think it might catch on.i'm sure alot of local farmers/shop keepers/plumbes/builders etc..would be up for this because they would benefit from it.however,it is converting the people that is the problem,caomhain, i think youre ideas are excellent and like i say if a real ,physical functionable alternative was in place and not just on paper, then i'm sure support for us would soar....

beir bua

[RedFlag32]

admin said:

Short of a socialist style form of government, I, personally, think a good start to building socialism in Ireland would be through business. Multinational corporations are taking over Ireland through business, we should counter this business style of imperialism the same way.

If the socialist community were to open small to large businesses working on a socialist basis, it would counter the International corporations in Ireland. If we were to offer a high wage/ low profit business model for Irish workers, open the books and create excellent working conditions, this would really allow people to see socialism working and would certainly have an impact on Multinationals.

!

Thats weird as i was thinking along those lines myself recently,What made me think of it was a programme i was watching where a guy baught his own island and set about employing people under the premise that they would have equall rights ETC,although the programme had nothing to do with socialism (to my knowledge anyway.i stopped watching after a while)the idea of showing people the pros of a system is to basically set up a mini system where they can judge and see for themselves the good it would do for society.

I for one would put money behind that idea,maybe the profits after everyone gets there equal share could go towards a charity or something similar,just to show people are willing to work and manage a business and recieve the same wage as there workers who put an equall amount of labor into the company as does the person running it.

[irishsoldierladdie]

IN A NUTSHELL-"a real ,physical functionable alternative in place and not just on paper," a sort of try before you buy ;)one problem that i think will become a big problem in the future is Provo sinn fein.Currently, Adams and his merry men get £85,000 a year for spouting the same old rhetoric and have flashy clothes, and both are wearing designer "sweatshop" clothing -my point is,that with them both making so much money, i cant see them swerving to wards socialism,once upon a time maybe but not now,its like the saying "those that enter the warm,dont like to go out into the cold again"- the Brits are making PSF more and more capitalist in an attempt to divide republicans even more.with the provo leaders making so much money from British schemes, The Brits know that the Provo's are only ever going to want more and more.this is why i think tat it should be a two-part movement-SOCIALISM HAND IN HAND WITH ANTI-GFA.the only way forward is if a group such as the IRSM/IRSP get into power.this may seem far fetched,but i believe it to be logical,i mean in present day terms,who would consider mcguinness and Adams working class.all they want now is bonuses and commission,wich they are drip fed from the GFA,thus,they will always want more and more.
either the provisional leadership is replaced or someone stands against them,either way - if PSF get into power or more along this so called "peace process"-then the less likely they are to bow to socialism.once again I'm not being defeatist,I'm just brainstorming problems we might face

beir bua

[Papa C.]

Brilliant points brought up there yet again lads. I don't think Sinn Fein are worth much to us if they're not a socialist movement. They've done more to 'normalise' Ireland than anyone else in the last few years and they've done it with the undying loyalty of a huge amount of working people, which is the only reason they were allowed to do it.

There's a lot going on at the 'top' alright. Maybe we should reorder the foundations and then shake the feck out of them! It would be good to have the backing of a party with as much support as Sinn Fein but they seem, on a leadership level at least, to be playing the elitist game and that is a counter to our cause.

I believe the IRSM are the only movement the Working Class can truly trust to work for socialism. I would love to see them grow but that takes education.

This discussion is all getting a little to intelligent and complicated for me lads. I think you's have fried my brain!

[RedFlag32]

irishsoldierladdie said:

IN A NUTSHELL-"a real ,physical functionable alternative in place and not just on paper," a sort of try before you buy ;)one problem that i think will become a big problem in the future is Provo sinn fein.Currently, Adams and his merry men get £85,000 a year for spouting the same old rhetoric and have flashy clothes, and both are wearing designer "sweatshop" clothing -my point is,that with them both making so much money, i cant see them swerving to wards socialism,once upon a time maybe but not now,its like the saying "those that enter the warm,dont like to go out into the cold again"- the Brits are making PSF more and more capitalist in an attempt to divide republicans even more.with the provo leaders making so much money from British schemes, The Brits know that the Provo's are only ever going to want more and more.this is why i think tat it should be a two-part movement-SOCIALISM HAND IN HAND WITH ANTI-GFA.the only way forward is if a group such as the IRSM/IRSP get into power.this may seem far fetched,but i believe it to be logical,i mean in present day terms,who would consider mcguinness and Adams working class.all they want now is bonuses and commission,wich they are drip fed from the GFA,thus,they will always want more and more.
either the provisional leadership is replaced or someone stands against them,either way - if PSF get into power or more along this so called "peace process"-then the less likely they are to bow to socialism.once again I'm not being defeatist,I'm just brainstorming problems we might face

beir bua

I wouldnt worry about SF,they will pose an equall threath to socialism as does FF,we have to offer an alternative and hope people will make the right decision,The IRSP would not like to get into power as far as i know,i dont speak for them,but the idea i to get rid of the one part rules system.

[RedFlag32]

admin said:

This discussion is all getting a little to intelligent and complicated for me lads. I think you's have fried my brain!

Easily done ;D

[Papa C.]

redflag32 said:

admin said:

This discussion is all getting a little to intelligent and complicated for me lads. I think you's have fried my brain!

Easily done ;D

Oh very good, very good ;D

[chud]

Relating to what Irishsoldierladdie said in his first post in this topic about capitalism in Ireland -

The conditions you describe are what will give rise to socialism. The capitalists will sell their enemies the rope to hang them with as the saying goes. As capitalism continues to develop, it continues to simplify class relations until there are only workers and bosses with few in between.

In a situation like that, class conflict sharpens - that's what we've seen throughout not just Ireland but the USA and UK. Some of the largest and most militant strikes in years.