Cuba - your opinion!

[dangeresque]

Please explain why you vote the way you do!

[Stallit 2 de Halfo]

No, Cuba is not socialist IMO.

Socialism is where the state is controlled by the working class. In Cuba, the state is controlled undemocratically by state bourgeoisie. Those who pull the strings are not working class, therefore they cannot have a working class consciousness, and therefore cannot make decisions on thier behalf. Direct participatory democracy or nothing.

Socialism is where the workers control and own the produce of their labour. In Cuba, they neither control nor own the produce of their labour - if they did - Fidel and rest - who produce nothing - and add no value to anything - would starve. They are parasites.

According to Marx's analysis, socialist revolution would take route in the most advanced capitalist countries where the means of production are most advanced. Cuba was a mainly an agricultural society with virtually no industrilization.

Socialism is where the working class take power. The Cuban revolution was conducted and created by a very small minority of people with a guerrilla force of no more than 800 at its peak. It was not participatory or democratic.

Cuba needed to embrace the economic structure of post Stalinist Russia in order to survive - recieving economic and military aid from the USSR. The USSR was not socialist.

Cuba may aswell be a monarchy seeing power rests along blood lines and close friendships, like the DPRK. It goes against everything Socialism stands for - anti privilege and democracy.

Thats not to say I agree with economic imperialism against Cuba, but I support the working class against the dictatorship.

"Socialist" Cuba goes against Marxist class analysis.

Thats my opinion on it.

[RedFlag32]

I voted yes because i view socialism as a stage between capitalism and communism not a thing in itself. Socialism is just a transitional stage,and i think Cuba represents a transitional stage from capitalism to communism,even if i dont agree with its set up completely.

On the arguement about those who are not working class not being able to be class conscious,i disagree. Think of Marx or Tone and you can see that those outside the distinction of "working class" can be class conscious and be progressive democrats. Irish history is litered with those who hailed from the protestant barrister class or middle class who faught for democratic rights in Ireland.Sure even look at the Anarchists in ireland today,they mostly come from pety bourgeoise backrounds,but they have an amount of class consciousness that makes them believe in Socialism.

[dangeresque]

I agree that it's a transitional state. It actually bears a close resemblence to the Paris Commune, the revolutionary "special state taht's not really a state" that Marx and Engels saw as the model for a workers' revolution. In fact the Cuban state is more purely proletarian than the Paris Commune was, which had more representatives from the middle class in its ranks.

So I voted yes.

[ulstersocialist]

i believe that Cuba used to be communist, before American intervention but since it got hammered by US policy and the end of soviet aid its had to turn to capitalist methods in order to keep its economy afloat. At the moment i believe it's socialist/communist in name only, much like China, Vietnam, Angola and the DPRK.

[Stallit 2 de Halfo]

Jasus I thought I was on my own there ;D

[dangeresque]

it's good to see some healthy debate and disagreements.

[dangeresque]

Just to clarify something though - no one claims Cuba is completely socialist or communist (it's not communist at all as no single nation can be). We argue that it's a workers' republic, where administration and tasks of the state are more and more taken up and influenced by the working class, including the workers who aren't convinced communists. It's a process, not a product, a workers state which is building socialism. Of course it still has to trade and interact with the surrounding capitalist world, so it can't be 100% socialist and survive.

Because it's state is made up of mass workers organisations (through such organs as the workers' congress, the committees to defend the revolution, women's groups, artist and writers' groups and so on) it can mobilise the masses when it needs to in a crisis. The proof is in the pudding: when a force five hurricane flooded Havana, everyone was mobilised to shelters in advance, their refrigerators and major appliances were evacuated, their pets were evacuated to bunkers staffed with vets and doctors, etc., and unlike New Orleans, no one died.

[RedFlag32]

dangeresque said:

Just to clarify something though - no one claims Cuba is completely socialist or communist (it's not communist at all as no single nation can be). We argue that it's a workers' republic, where administration and tasks of the state are more and more taken up and influenced by the working class, including the workers who aren't convinced communists. It's a process, not a product, a workers state which is building socialism. Of course it still has to trade and interact with the surrounding capitalist world, so it can't be 100% socialist and survive.

Because it's state is made up of mass workers organisations (through such organs as the workers' congress, the committees to defend the revolution, women's groups, artist and writers' groups and so on) it can mobilise the masses when it needs to in a crisis. The proof is in the pudding: when a force five hurricane flooded Havana, everyone was mobilised to shelters in advance, their refrigerators and major appliances were evacuated, their pets were evacuated to bunkers staffed with vets and doctors, etc., and unlike New Orleans, no one died.

Don't you just love when people helping eachother and co-operative behavour saves lives ;D

[Papa C.]

dangeresque said:

Just to clarify something though - no one claims Cuba is completely socialist or communist (it's not communist at all as no single nation can be). We argue that it's a workers' republic, where administration and tasks of the state are more and more taken up and influenced by the working class, including the workers who aren't convinced communists. It's a process, not a product, a workers state which is building socialism. Of course it still has to trade and interact with the surrounding capitalist world, so it can't be 100% socialist and survive.

Because it's state is made up of mass workers organisations (through such organs as the workers' congress, the committees to defend the revolution, women's groups, artist and writers' groups and so on) it can mobilise the masses when it needs to in a crisis. The proof is in the pudding: when a force five hurricane flooded Havana, everyone was mobilised to shelters in advance, their refrigerators and major appliances were evacuated, their pets were evacuated to bunkers staffed with vets and doctors, etc., and unlike New Orleans, no one died.

I think Hurricane Katrina summed up the difference between a capitalist response and a workers' response to a disaster. In NewOrleans people were shot by police for looting just because they had no food and were forced to, streets and estates were littered with dead bodies days, even weeks, after the disaster, funding for the disaster was stopped, and aid workers were refused permission into the city because of 'Red Tape' politics. I know where I'd rather live in the event of a disaster like this.

Obviously Cuba isn't communist but I would see it as a transitional stage that is as war with the US and slowed down by the west.

How can socialism be expected to work when war mongers, liars, pigs and parasites are doing their utmost to ruin it's development. We can't hold those in control as enemies of democracy if the west is trying to destroy any revolution. Fidel/ Raul are simply trying to hold it together. War and imperialist intervention will always slow development.

[RedFlag32]

I think it is wrong to expect a perfect revolution anyway,its never going to happen as it was written. I find peoples lack of support for Venezuella is because of this mentality aswell,it may not be socialist,or even going towards socialism but atleast its progressive,thats something we can work on.

[Papa C.]

I agree