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Post by Hessian Peel on Jun 28, 2008 16:35:05 GMT
The ISN seem like a decent crowd.
I'm interested in Luxemburg myself, but I'm not sure about their position on Lenin and the need (or lack of, as they would see it) for a vanguard party or organisation.
I definitely think that's needed at certain stages, particularly at the point of the initial revolution and then the defence of any gains made by the workers.
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Post by Papa C. on Jun 28, 2008 19:08:19 GMT
I have listened to the Mp3 a number of times. I thought it was an interesting speech by the ISN. I did take issue with some of what he/ they were saying. I wouldn't be in favour of a vanguard LEADING working people but I'd feel there would need to be defence for working people against the Gardai and ERU and the like, especially when working people are kicking the s*** out of TD's in Leinster house ;D Working people (health workers, patients, builders, office workers, housewives, the homeless, travellers etcetera...) should be leading the revolution.
I would be in favour of some sort of democratic administration or democratic council that decides what decisions should be up for a vote. I have often thought about daily voting on decisions that affect working people. People should be able to vote through the internet, their phones, by post, at polling stations, through the TV simply by entering a PIN designated for said person. Some might say 'no one's going to vote every day FFS' but the fact is, if you're not in, you can't win. One vote, one voice - use it.
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Post by Papa C. on Jun 28, 2008 19:09:48 GMT
Forgot to say, welcome to the board Hessian Peel! Hope you stick around and take part in more debates comrade. Saoirse go deo!
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Post by dangeresque on Jul 10, 2008 1:33:27 GMT
They would be the closest organisation in terms of organizational structure and the belief in the working class to organize and create socialism without a vanguard, to my own position. Though they are 'Luxemburgist' - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LuxemburgismAny event you go to theyr at it giving out there very eye catching and glossy 'Resistence' news sheet. How they fund it I dont know cause there aint many of them. But theyr good group and I would hope they grow to be an alternative to the ever dominant 'democratic centralism' of the SP, SWP, CPI, IRSP, WP (who they split from) etc. The SWP in particular has a very bad reputation with DC. Are you sure that Luxemburgists reject Democratic Centralism? I know that many Left Communists favour 'Organic Centralism', which means you wean out anyone that doesn't share the group's analysis (which also leads to isolation from the broader working class movement in practice). But AFAIK, Luxemburg belonged to a centralised workers' party that had an elected centralised leadership, and attempted a revolution even when the majority of German workers didnt favour it (in other words, a classic vanguard party). Anyway, it is literally an impossibility to have a revolution without a vanguard. If all or even a majority of workers could attain class consciouness at once, (that is a clear understanding of how capitalism doesn't function in their interests and the need to overthrow it) without a small select group leading the way, capitalism itself coudl never have come about or maintained its existence. I'd like to see more about the ISN, because I think at this time they may be a good option. Democratic Centralism is only useful when you have a mass revolutionary workers party, and that doesn't exist at the moment. |
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Post by Stallit 2 de Halfo on Jul 10, 2008 13:35:22 GMT
Im pretty sure Rosa did not favour democratic centralism as a sort of default system of party organisation, but only when certain conditions existed within the party membership.
I suppose questioning whether its a vanguardist party in itself dosnt say anything. The role of the party is what matters, and whether it takes power or is just a mechanism for injecting ideas into the working class for them to self organize, and I think this is where Luxemburg differs, and why I would support her.
But the ISN as far as I am aware, is more democratic and less hierarchial than others, splitting from the Wp having experinced heavy top down leadership. Leaving aside the WSM, the ISN would be organizationally more liberal.
How do you know who is more class conscious, or not?.
How do you know that what this vanguard does, or propounds, is the more correct course and ideas, as opposed to being something more detrimental to society?
Creating socialism in Ireland right here and now could be a disaster for the Irish working class. So what of those who want to do such a thing? are they 'class consciouse'?
The Russian revolution, historically, could be viewed as a revolution to create an industrial bourgeois society.
So what of those who had this 'class consciousness' and believed they were creating something else? - of course, you wont agree with me on this, but thats the way I view it.
Class consciousness does not have to be either or "everyone develops class consciousness at once" or "those who develop it are the leadership and vanguard".
I think people can act collectivly without any leadership, people can take action through a collective consciousness. There are things that a leadership couldnt even dream of trying to organize or create, but which happened through sponteneity and through a common set of material conditions.
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Post by dangeresque on Jul 10, 2008 17:42:07 GMT
Im pretty sure Rosa did not favour democratic centralism as a sort of default system of party organisation, but only when certain conditions existed within the party membership. I suppose questioning whether its a vanguardist party in itself dosnt say anything. The role of the party is what matters, and whether it takes power or is just a mechanism for injecting ideas into the working class for them to self organize, and I think this is where Luxemburg differs, and why I would support her. Ok, thanks for the info. Yet it doesn't sound much different from the Leninist model, either in theory or practice. How do you know who is more class conscious, or not?. By judging those who see their interests as a class in ending wage-slavery and building socialism. How do you know that what this vanguard does, or propounds, is the more correct course and ideas, as opposed to being something more detrimental to society? That can only be tested by practice. Creating socialism in Ireland right here and now could be a disaster for the Irish working class. So what of those who want to do such a thing? are they 'class consciouse'? Just hazarding a guess, I'd say there's a tiny percent of calss conscious workers at the moment n any first world country. There's no way they could even attempt to implement socialism. The Russian revolution, historically, could be viewed as a revolution to create an industrial bourgeois society. It certainly could be- but the massive, gaping hole in this stagist theory would be its inability to explain the existence and role of - even if it was for a brief time - independent working class activities (Soviets, mutinies, the Red volunteers in the Civil War) that were clearly as militant and revolutionary as any revolutionary situation before or since; more so than event he Paris Commune. So what of those who had this 'class consciousness' and believed they were creating something else? - of course, you wont agree with me on this, but thats the way I view it. Well you're right, I can't agree with you here. I would see it as a (failed) socialist revolution that had to complete the tasks of the democratic revolution along the way (and thus accomplished these democratic tasks much more thoroughly). Within the command economy and collective ownership, the Soviet Union's primitive accumulation surpassed any capitalist society, ever. That can't be explained away as being just a bourgeois revolution- for one, the bourgeoisie largely abdicated from their role... I think people can act collectivly without any leadership, people can take action through a collective consciousness. There are things that a leadership couldnt even dream of trying to organize or create, but which happened through sponteneity and through a common set of material conditions. Oh, definitely. I don't even see a contradiction between the course of the class struggle that you're describing here and my own ideas on the vanguard. I don't think the vanguard makes the revolution, but is undeniably necessary to coordinate any mass and/or national campaign. Even the anarchists had a central leadership in Spain. |
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Post by Stallit 2 de Halfo on Jul 13, 2008 23:28:17 GMT
I dont agree. That is my and your opinion that ending wage slavery and building socialism is in the interests of the working class.
That opinion (for most communists that i know) did not necessarilly develop out of the realities of capitalism, but rather through other means. (in my case (probably), encountering soviet memorabilia when I was young).
If you look at websites like revleft, you will find that the overwhelming majority are students, unemployed and young.
Them coming to the conclusion that capitalism is not in the working classes interest, and that socialism (whatever that is) is - to me - is not what class consciousness is. I would find it baffeling that they are class conscious, having not actually experienced capitalism to any great degree. And especially when those with treble or quadruple their experience tend to be far more conservative.
I could list off countless social and psychological reasons as to why they turn towards communism as their ideology. If you read the discussions on SF, its remarkable how very similar they are to those on revleft. A persons ideology could so easily, at this point in time, be decided by what they encounter via books, family stories, memorabilia, internet sites etc.
None of which have little or nothing to do with any sort of economic conditions or experience - which - to me, is the most important factor.
Its all so superficial. And, to clarify, I dont see myself as class conscious, but rather a person with an opinion on how to do something differently and solve a problem. I cant claim either that my opinions are due to experiencing capitalism , otherwise others with far greater experience would have similar conclusions, which they generally dont.
To me, class consciousness, or at least a 'revolutionary class consciousness', comes about in a near spontaneous way, resulting from a particular set of conditions not really creatable.
The job of communists either during, or before, is to propose and educate an alternative. That is not class consciousness though, as others could also propose a completely different alternative if they wished, and objectively, who is to say what is or what is not the correct way.
The difference is what the workers, during a revolutionary period, can relate to and apply through their own experience into a practical and workable reality. And the ideas they apply, and by which they change society, may very well develop there and then having never heard a word of Marx or any socialist literature.
And I think only after that practice - can it be seen whether what was done in the working classes interest, was in the working classes interest.
What if it was not - what of their preordained, self-proclaimed 'class consciousness' by which they suppoesedly act in the working classes interest?
And who would they be?
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Post by dangeresque on Jul 23, 2008 20:09:14 GMT
To me, class consciousness, or at least a 'revolutionary class consciousness', comes about in a near spontaneous way, resulting from a particular set of conditions not really creatable. I definitely agree- it has to arise from the struggle of a group of people together, it can't really happen in isolation or because you decide it should happen articifially. The difference is what the workers, during a revolutionary period, can relate to and apply through their own experience into a practical and workable reality. And the ideas they apply, and by which they change society, may very well develop there and then having never heard a word of Marx or any socialist literature. Well said! That's what I was getting at but not nearly as well as you've just put it. [/quote] Wouldn't know, but it would be interesting to talk to some of those dock workers that struck against the war... a political strike of that nature is what my comrades and I have been pushing for for years without much luck  |
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Post by soldieroflife on Aug 2, 2008 13:22:04 GMT
really enjoyed that speech was very impressed, ISN seem very interesting indeed and wouldnt mind working with them
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Post by RedFlag32 on Aug 4, 2008 11:53:02 GMT
really enjoyed that speech was very impressed, ISN seem very interesting indeed and wouldnt mind working with them You'd work with anybody, you slut! |
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Post by soldieroflife on Aug 4, 2008 16:13:14 GMT
really enjoyed that speech was very impressed, ISN seem very interesting indeed and wouldnt mind working with them You'd work with anybody, you slut! you left sectarian!!!! ;D |
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