|
|
Post by Stallit 2 de Halfo on May 13, 2008 23:03:32 GMT
I wonder if this is in anyway reflective of the way people will be voting, and consider, that the majority on there are FF/FG/PD/LP/GP supporters. How will you vote in the Lisbon Treaty referendum? www.politics.ie/viewtopic.php?f=172&t=29718Yes - 122 No - 224 Undecided - 27 Lets hope  |
|
|
|
Post by anticapitalist on May 14, 2008 21:11:36 GMT
Doubt it if we could judge a prediction from a poll like that, i don't ever have much fate in any opinion poll inanyway, it's hard to know what way the vote will go on this treaty  , people are so undecided, and most working class will go on instinct, probably at the last minute, that everything has been o.k with the E.U so far. i would say that the majority of the main party supporters will do what they are told as usual  , we can only hope that the likes of the farmers will go against it over Peter Mandelson, or that the business crowd will get a fright over the changes with the tax situation, but it's obvious we are really being missinformed about the undemocratic side to it, and if the no camp use this, then we have a good chance, to get the people to realise how important it is, for us and the whole world, for this to be sent back to the leaders with a message that, they have not got the free hand to do as they please just yet ;D |
|
|
|
Post by Papa C. on May 15, 2008 14:16:49 GMT
Well I mean, it is a bit of a moral booster to see that even some right wing twits seem to be voting 'no' as they'd usually put their full support into the yes campaign even though it might harm them... and then they'll be complaining. But it is only a small vote and can't really be compared to the voice of 2.9 million voters or 1.74 if there's a 60% turn out (I've been doing the maths!  ). Just like to point out that a 60% turn out is a minority vote and a majority 'yes' vote is still a minority vote. The Government needs feck all people to convince and I'm sure they know exactly who votes also - we don't. Very well said Anticapitalist. The only people who seem to be getting a good deal out of this are senior Government ministers and the businesses and developers who have said ministers in their back pocket. The NO camp need to go full swing with this campaign regardless of how people are thinking as the left should never get complacent about how referenda are going to go. I suggest we throw our weight behind the CAEUC campaign and various other campaigns by making up images, making YouTube videos and other ways. What do yee think? The only problem is finding the time to do all of it. Would C1916 be able to make up a video for the SPI no vote campaign at all? I will also try to get one done in the little time we have. Here are some points we could make. Please let me know if I've made any errors with these... The Lisbon Treaty will:1. Make the Irish constitution void and irrelivant as our decisions will be made by Europe 2. End the democratic vote in Ireland and make democratic decisions made by Irish voters redundant 3. Allow the EU to over-ride Irish democratic votes even if it's unconstitutional! 4. Allow the EU to set our tax rates 5. Make it easier to militarise the EU (taking part in wars like Iraq and Afghanistan (not as peace keepers but invaders)) 6. Slowly erradicate free health care (we can see this happening already with numerous hospital closures) and the medical card 7. Allow the EU to effectively control our economy from Abroad Anyone got Anymore to add? |
|
|
|
Post by Stallit 2 de Halfo on May 15, 2008 23:53:42 GMT
I could give it a go PC if I get myself behind it. Iv been noticing loads of posters put up by the Irish Business and Employers Confederation (IBEC) (a union of capitalists). That alone would be enough to ring some alarm bells. Though generally, IMO, people seem to have short memories, and will probably fall for it. These IBEC posters (big glossy ones) are literally everywhere AFAICS, form Dublin, Navan, Dundalk to Drogheda. Backed by big money, though i believe they are only allowed to spend a certain amount on their campaign - (eh, yeah right  ). So far its Yes Yes Yes Tá Yes Yes all over the place. One of the biggest backers for the No side, Sinn Fein, have posters have the size of the Ibec ones, and nowhere near the amount around. The IRSP have some aswell, but I havnt seen them yet, but they wont be anything spectacular with the resources available. |
|
|
|
Post by anticapitalist on May 16, 2008 0:29:30 GMT
I'ts a pity we don't have much time for this, would love to have tried to get funding for a few thousand well worded posters, to be placed in and around the main towns of each county, but i might as well dream here, just as i dreamt about a united Ireland through the E.U Papa C, don't know how to quote sections of your list, without doing your whole post, so on number 1, re the constitution, we will still keep the Irish one, but declaration 17 concerning primacy, makes clear that E.U law would be superior to the Irish constitution and any law, in cases of conflict between the two, the treaty will give the E.U the power to make laws binding on us in many new areas, and would take that power away from dail Eireann and from us citizens who elect the dail, there is so much to this, it's a pity there is not much time left, we could have held the fuckers to ransom over it  , if we could have the time to persuade the small majority thats needed, to swing this, and there is no doubt a no vote would be cast if the people were really aware of the consequences, and reprecussions  i have a few more points for your list will be posting them tomorrow |
|
|
|
Post by anticapitalist on May 16, 2008 11:29:52 GMT
your list is on the ball just some of the articles cover, the same ones especially on the constitution our rights, and on our oppinions not that they have really mattered in the past with our own governments dictating, to us, but it is really getting worse at least we knew that they were only in Dublin town,
one good thing about it, if you could call it a good thing, while treaty will allow if ratified the right to petition to the commision asking it to propose a new law, it will require one million EU citizens signatures, there will still be no obligation on the commision, apart from considering the the request, in other words the citizens have the right to complain if they get a million others, and will then have to hope for the best
Number 4 on taxes
Already the E.U commision has drafted proposals for introducing a common EU tax base while it only applies to company tax at the moment, it has smartly posponed it's publication until after our referendum, there is a clause which i would say will be used to introduce EU tax harmonisation, in all sectors
5 on the military the most dangerous of all considering the relatonship most of the new member states have with the yankee influence, over breaking away from Russia,
member states are required to progressively improve their military capabilities, it contains an article which the current Slovenian EU presidency has admitted is a mutual defence clause (ART.28a.7) should a member state be a victim of armed aggression then the obligation is on the rest, to assist, this is seperate like you said to other operations that member states might undertake without UN mandates, Willie o Dea is lying through his teeth. and we better put an order in with the yankee or Israely governments for a few hundred or thousand bobybags
for the near future, and i am not intending to scaremonger, we will be set up as a result, i would say in the next 5 years or so we will run into a military situation and get bogged down.
|
|
|
|
Post by Stallit 2 de Halfo on Jun 1, 2008 23:48:35 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by Papa C. on Jun 2, 2008 9:02:48 GMT
Some people I know seem to be voting YES. This makes me very unhappy. I've had to have chats with some people about what could happen. There is a few posters in town that state - 'no to foreign rule'. I think this is a very valid point given the changes in the Irish constitution and give the EU the right to rule Ireland if they feel like it.
|
|
|
|
Post by anticapitalist on Jun 2, 2008 16:29:02 GMT
I just heard F.G, M.E.P, Gay Mitchell on the radio accusing the U.S dept of defence of funding libertas with 1.3 million fror it's campaign apparently to scupper E.U millitary arms investments should we reject the treaty, i think that is very interesting if it is the case, as i had the impression that the yanks wanted the treaty passed for trade and a better chance to cause corruption, from the top.
|
|
|
|
Post by anticapitalist on Jun 2, 2008 20:20:08 GMT
Some people I know seem to be voting YES. This makes me very unhappy. I've had to have chats with some people about what could happen. There is a few posters in town that state - 'no to foreign rule'. I think this is a very valid point given the changes in the Irish constitution and give the EU the right to rule Ireland if they feel like it. Just back in from putting up more posters as we had strong wind and heavy rain last week and they were only the hard paper ones, well most people who spoke to us said they will be voting no, and i had a phone call with R.B.B, he reckons that there is going to be a rejection of it by the people, judging by the responce they are getting on the ground, as he has been out canvassing everyday. so yeah lets hope |
|
|
|
Post by Stallit 2 de Halfo on Jun 2, 2008 22:22:18 GMT
I know, same here. They are voting yes because ""they are 'european'"" - really, thats the answer I get!. But thats the way it is. These people arnt even 'political'. The types who vote FF because its a family tradition. I shouldnt really expect anything more though. At least the internet polls so-far have been No at around 2/3s. That could probably be an indicator of the 20 - 35+ age group I suppose. One person i know though is a trad FF voter and she's voting No due to listening to the debates. Me too!. I have PBP posters I got from brid smith. And yeah, the wind is a problem, especially when you live near the coast. The hard posters are way better. What organisation are you putting them up for AC? |
|
|
|
Post by anticapitalist on Jun 2, 2008 22:33:35 GMT
What organisation are you putting them up for AC?
Putting them up for myself, it's an opportunity to do my piece, me and a mate, who writes for the free press down here, went to a meeting we got the posters from R.B.B,
there was not many up from the no side down here, a few from S.F and the ones with the monkeys, i think they are made of plastic? so we evened up the score with the P.B.P ones, they are a bit delicate, but i like the sound of people before profit, it is a great caption better than all the words on any other poster going to hand out a few leaflets over next weekend if they can get them down on time.
|
|
, people are so undecided, and most working class will go on instinct, probably at the last minute, that everything has been o.k with the E.U so far.
,
). Just like to point out that a 60% turn out is a minority vote and a majority 'yes' vote is still a minority vote. The Government needs feck all people to convince and I'm sure they know exactly who votes also - we don't.
). So far its Yes Yes Yes Tá Yes Yes all over the place. One of the biggest backers for the No side, Sinn Fein, have posters have the size of the Ibec ones, and nowhere near the amount around. The IRSP have some aswell, but I havnt seen them yet, but they wont be anything spectacular with the resources available.
, if we could have the time to persuade the small majority thats needed, to swing this, and there is no doubt a no vote would be cast if the people were really aware of the consequences, and reprecussions 