Ireland and 'democracy'??

[Papa C.]

I was recently thinking about how undemocratic Ireland is and something hit me...

The official population of Ireland is circa 4million but the electoral roll is only 1.2 million last time I checked. This is my usual argument when arguing against the Irish system versus democracy. But I neglected another variable which is that when we look at the turn out of Irish voters. I remember it being reported at 55% - 60% of the electorate. Looking at these figures, this means that only around 700,000 people actually vote in Ireland. Could this be accurate? If so, that's only around 18% of the population who actually vote! This is less than the population of Dublin! Is this democracy? I always thought that democracy was supposed to be the voice of the majority, not an extreme minority.

Another poll by the CSO (another pro-Government agency) stated that 25% of the population are 'at risk of poverty'. So there are less voters in Ireland than people 'at risk of poverty'.

I mean this affects the entire country and it's children. Can someone please double check my findings?

It would be nice to start a campaign with this cannon fodder if I'm right.

[Papa C.]

I also read recently that the turn out for the crucially important Nice Treaty referendum which gave up our neutrality (and I presume it was the second time they ran the vote by the way!) was 32.9% of registered voters. How can the people of Ireland let that pass?

[Papa C.]

Okay I've done some more research on this (unbelievably hard to find out anything by the way) and some sources say that the number of registered voters in 2.9 million.

www.iht.com/articles/2001/06/09/irish_ed3_.php - This article says that the number of votes cast in the first (that's right the first. Why was there 2? We don’t have 2 general elections for instance) Nice Treaty referendum was 982,939 which is 24.5% of the Irish population or 34% of the 2.9mil electorate. Still a whopping minority.

So the usual 60% turn out of 2.9million is 1.7 million people which is still a minority vote in Ireland. So basically the minority vote the Government in.

[RedFlag32]

This is very worrying and id say most of the population would agree if they only knew these figures. The fact is that there is more than one democratic theory in exsistence,for example in America they use madisonian democracy if im correct.There is also populist democracy,amongst others. I would say what we have in Ireland is basically what is pawned of as democracy in the USA aswell. I think instead of saying ireland is not democratic we should be saying that it is not fully democratic. Some aspects of the republic are democratic to a certain extent,we just have to make them more so.

[Stallit 2 de Halfo]

This is brilliant PC that you combine these figures. I would have thought myself that when they say "60% of the electorate turned out to vote" they mean 60% of the Irish population - though of course, you are most probably right in saying its only those registered.

Its also quite a confusing (purposefully) thing for the media to say. They always say the "electorate" (which is always going to be a high percentage figure") rather than giving the percentage in terms of who actually came out to vote from the entire population. It wouldnt look well on Irelands "healthy" democracy

Nice Treaty referendum was 982,939 which is 24.5% of the Irish population or 34% of the 2.9mil electorate. Still a whopping minority.

So the usual 60% turn out of 2.9million is 1.7 million people which is still a minority vote in Ireland. So basically the minority vote the Government in.

Im a little confused here. The 2.9 registered electoral figure for the Nice Treaty? would have changed wouldnt it since then, for the recent general election that is?

Both the Nice Treaty and the 2007 general election register wouldnt have been the same would it? - especially seeing as the register changed for both Nice Treaty referendum by a slight amount.

This site might come in handy for you: www.electionsireland.org

Figures for 2nd Nice Treaty:
Electorate: 2,923,918
Turnout: 49.47%
Actual Voters: 1,446,578
www.electionsireland.org/results/referendum/refresult.cfm?ref=200226R

1st Nice Treaty:
Electorate: 2,867,960
Turnout: 34.79%
Actual Voters: 997,826
www.electionsireland.org/results/referendum/refresult.cfm?ref=200124R

I cant seem to find any good figures for the general election on there. It would be good to have the actual register for 2007 and the turnout percentage.

I also did a count of how many senior Ministers are in their positions due to "blood line", I mentioned it here www.indymedia.ie/article/85288?author_name=Informed&comment_limit=0&condense_comments=false#comment214638 im "informed"

From the list here: www.electionsireland.org/results/general/30thdail/government.cfm though it might have changed since June...

It turns out that roughly 3/4 of senior government ministers, as seen in the list have either one or more family members also TDs, or have been in the past, or have family members part of a County Council. Most have law degree's. I will have to have a look again, but it shows how statistically improbable it is, or restrictive it is, for someone without a law degree or family member a politician to actually get anywhere into political power. Power is controlled through a few select families.

How many families do you know who have, or had 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 or even 7 TDs (Lenihans) who have been in the Dail (thats not even a position of power such as a minister)? - never mind the county Council. Its a frightening figure altogether.

I reckon its very similar for all TDs, in the ruling party or the opposition, that they have had family members in the Dail or local councils. Labour and Fianna gael in particular. There are other examples that dont - Joe Higgins, tony Gregory etc

I cant get the information on all the TDs though and even if I did it would take ages.

I dont see why it should be up to the likes of me and you to work these things out. Journalists are bloody paid to do investigative work and analysis. But thats the "free press" then aint it ;D

[Papa C.]

RedFlag32, Let me present my case... When a minority ruling class control, or widely control how the country is run, we can hardly call that democracy. Democracy runs on the premise that majority rules. That means the voice of the majority of the population should prevail. We shouldn’t have to ‘register’ to vote. Why must we register when the Government already knows who is eligible to vote through the census which is taken every 4 years and asks more question than a CIA interrogation.

When a ruling class controls the TV, the Radio, the papers and all that we see and hear (through licensing, subsidies, and basically money) and use their propaganda to coerce the working class into their way of thinking, we can hardly call it a free and fair democracy.


That is exactly what they want you to believe Connolly1916 and that is how they toe it. The electorate is those registered to vote. The electorate is different than the population.

On the topic of Government ministers and their blood line, this isn't surprising at all to me. On the same note, I loved the way Michael Moore tried to get even one US senator to enlist any of their kids to go to Iraq - Every one of them declined. Again it is the poor who suffer, who join the Army because it pays better than McDonalds... and that's not saying much.

Cheers for all the info Connolly1916, you're sooo right.

[RedFlag32]

admin said:

RedFlag32, Let me present my case... When a minority ruling class control, or widely control how the country is run, we can hardly call that democracy. Democracy runs on the premise that majority rules. That means the voice of the majority of the population should prevail. We shouldn’t have to ‘register’ to vote. Why must we register when the Government already knows who is eligible to vote through the census which is taken every 4 years and asks more question than a CIA interrogation.

When a ruling class controls the TV, the Radio, the papers and all that we see and hear (through licensing, subsidies, and basically money) and use their propaganda to coerce the working class into their way of thinking, we can hardly call it a free and fair democracy.

I'm not disagreeing with you mate, i agree with you to a large extent,what i was trying to say is that "democracy" isn't just one ideology. Ive been reading allot about it and to my surprise there are loads of different variants on it,just like i suppose there was and is different variants on socialism.Other peoples opinions on what democracy actually is are relevant to the struggle in Ireland for a socialist republic because its that perception w have to either change or progress. It is less of a jump for the workers to demand full democracy than for them to be told we live in a totally undemocratic society. I'm thinking tactically here comrade.

What is accepted as democracy in the western world today is not full democracy, but certain aspects of our society are democratic,at least to an extent. The vote in principle is democratic,but it is not being put to its full democratic potential or ability and this is the key.

We have a "democracy" in Ireland which is majority rule but minority controlled. Our democracy protects the "natural rights" of the minority as well. This means that a minorities (ruling class) natural rights (private property) are protected from the majority (workers) There are certain aspects to our "democracy" that hinder it being actual democracy,and the protection of this minority is one very important aspect.

The reason i say we have some sort of democracy in Ireland today is because if we didn't it would have to be something else, dictatorship etc.. and it doesn't seem to be,so thats why i think our Republic is built on certain democratic ideas but it just doesn't go the whole way.

[Papa C.]

*bump*

I'd just like to add that there are also Irish voters outside of Ireland who are still eligible to vote. Does this mean that there is an even smaller turn out in Irish referenda that we originally thought? I'll try and get sources on this if I can.

[Stallit 2 de Halfo]

*bump*

I'd just like to add that there are also Irish voters outside of Ireland who are still eligible to vote. Does this mean that there is an even smaller turn out in Irish referenda that we originally thought? I'll try and get sources on this if I can.

They never came to mind. Can they vot if outside the state?, I wouldnt have thought so myself.



There should be alot of information that should be available in easy to read format for the public about the elections if they wished to decide what they think about the process itself, if it were a 'healthy' and transparant democracy. But its not of course.

Iv been thinking lately about what the percentage turnout is for the various constituencies are. Like for instance the Dunleoirigh*(Kingstown) area would surely contain more of the chattering class who vote than the likes of Tallaght. It would give a better chance at seeing who it is thats voting in the likes of Bertie.

This maybe a conspiracy theory, but during the second Nice Treaty vote, they introduced electronic voting machines in some areas, like Dundrum. The same machines that have now been deemed to be flawed and corruptable and are in storage. Probably some vote fixing going on seeing as they felt the need to introduce them on the second treaty....id love to be a fly on the wall.

Electionsireland seems to be the best site for statistics, though not spectacular.

[Papa C.]

May 4, 2008 11:50:15 GMT Stallit 2 de Halfo said:

They never came to mind. Can they vot if outside the state?, I wouldnt have thought so myself.

Yes, they can vote by postal ballot. For instance, there are people in the US who can vote in Irish elections. I'm not sure what the specifications they have to meet are. Maybe someone else can she light on this. I would have thought it is the conservative Irish-American types but perhaps I'm being unfair. I wonder how many there are?

We could build an information base about elections and democracy ourselves. I think we need even more mind blowing and thought provoking information first though.

[Papa C.]

following on from this, I'm just wondering if anyone has found any information about the Irish electorate that vote from outside of Ireland? I know there are some in Britain and the US and I suppose NI/ British occupied Ireland.