PUP-Yay or Nay?

[RedFlag32]

Could or should Republican socialists ever align themselves with the PUP on things they agree on like drugs in the community or should they get no platform as loyalists?

Would working closer with them open up the possibility of radicalising some of the membership and opening them up to Marxism and how to apply it to the Irish/British situation? Surely if they looked at the irish situation from a Marxist point of view they would come to the same conclusion as republican socialists?

[Papa C.]

redflag32 said:

Surely if they looked at the irish situation from a Marxist point of view they would come to the same conclusion as republican socialists?

I would agree with that statement because I think Marxism is for everyone and, if explained properly, can win the heart of any working class person. Loyalists know that the Government is not their friend but I think what's keeping them in a loyalist mindset is that they see 'Republicans' (more likely sectarian Irish Nationalists) as a threat to their well being. If that's the case, I can understand but coming from the south I wouldn't be affected by sectarianism as much as loyalists.

I know some protestants who were given hell for their religion. I didn't understand it then but I understand now it was simply ignorance and media brainwashing that is to blame.

[thefiguresix]

I agree. I think the problem with protestant working class communities is that they have been pushed into a political position that dosent really fit and that i honestly believe they dont really want. Through the troubles it seemed to protestants that every socialist organization rallied to the IRA band wagon. As I became politically aware in my youth and wanted to explore socialism it was very difficult for me to find a way in. It seemed that socialism supported people who viewed me as a target and a foreign invader.
In the last 30 years in the north the working class struggle has been forgotten. Ive spoken to many american and Spanish people about northern ireland and there is a sense that the protestant working class dosent exist.
I think that in the lack of any socialist representation paramilitaries and the political elite such as the DUP and UUP were able to channel that frustration and lack of a voice and twist and turn it into what we know as modern loyalism.
With no where else to turn people gave support to the only powers that threw them the slightest crumbs from the table. Protestants have become entrenched and fearful of socialism because all they ever felt that they experienced from it was an attack.
The PUP have made step toward filling that vacuum and it should be supported and at the very least engaged by the greater socialist network. There are even signs of a split in ideology amongst the UVF ranks on issues such as the far right and racism. It fact I strongly believe that the failure (or more strongly, refusal) of socialism to engage protestants in the north has had the direct consequence of providing a breeding ground for the extreme right.

Im sorry if ive went on a bit but its a point i feel very strongly on.

so in answer, PUP YAY!ish. allegiance with a group linked to loyalist death squads is a bitter pill to swallow but there is a seed of something there and socialism and the left must accept their portion of the blame in the creation of this beast.

BTW, im new on here so id like to say hello to all!

[dangeresque]

the interesting thing will be to see how Loyalist communities redefine themselves when they don't have an ongoing 'war' to construct an identity and way of relating to the world. For republicans that's not much of a problem, but for loyalists it's more of a challenge. let's just hope we're there to fill that void.

[thefiguresix]

It will be interesting so see how socialism redefines itself when it is called upon to represent the whole working class community of ireland. Im glad to see people are willing to step up and help fill the void. The division of the two communities is a creation of nationalism (in the broader political sense of the word) and the state. We need an alternative to supporting causes which have fed off anger and bigotry and helped maintain that division.
Its a pity there wasnt some effort made earlier before the idea that socialism equals IRA/anti protestant became so entrenched in the protestant mindset.

As for the construction of identity, i believe this is were the ulster scots tradition can play a part. If it could be accepted instead of berated it might just be saved from the the nationalistic grip of orangism. It provides a route to protestants coming to terms with their place in ireland and could ease the frustrations of the protestant identity crisis, which could only be a good thing.

[ulstersocialist]

until they dissasociate themselves from loyalism, I dont see how there can be room for them in the left with such repugnantly pro-beourgioise baggage.

[thefiguresix]

it can be easy think every protestant is out and out loyalist and that no one from that background has recognized the ugliness of loyalism or wants social change. there is room for anyone who believes in leftist ideals, isnt that the whole point. i think nationalistic tendencies are getting in the way of socialist ideals. working class struggle exists in protestant communities and perhaps if aggressively defensive opinions were fewer then it would provide the space for people to disassociate themselves from loyalism. if you go around telling a group of people that socialism dosent want them, which is the message protestants have been hearing for 40 years, what kind of reaction to you expect from them, and where do you think that community will look to for political support.
I would rather change peoples mind than just launch an attack on my "enemy". if socialism dosent start to identify with protestants and even make the slightest attempt to invite them in then the gap will be filled by the only other political entity which claims to stand up for the working class, the nationalist extreme right.
anyone who would rather watch fascism fill a political vacuum than reach out a hand should seriously look at themselves and ask what they truly believe. if you put nationalistic pride and racial cultural identity before all inclusive working class struggle then i believe you are a bit confused about what political allegiances you think you have. like ive said in another post, if socialism could just open the door and stop the whole 'all protestants are murdering pro-bourgeoisie agents of the crown" rhetoric for just one minute you would be surprised at the number of protestants willing to accept socialism. in my experience so many of the protestant ive met or friends i know call themselves socialist but they never get involved with activism because the wider movement is so aggressive towards their presence.
ive left so many messaging communities ive been a member of because opinions like this just end up with me being inundated with offensive messages calling me a fucking orange bigot, british scum and so on.... all i and many people who are from or have left behind their protestant upbringing want is to practice my socialist beliefs without constantly being exposed to preconceived notions and vicious bigotry.

I was born and raised in a protestant community and im fucking red all the way!

[RedFlag32]

thefiguresix said:

I was born and raised in a protestant community and im fucking red all the way!

Sent a chill up my spine mate ;D I'll get back to this thread in a while,bit busy with the din at the moment,some really good points being put across here. Two "protestant" socialists on the one thread, my oh my, the SPI is a lucky forum.HAHA only joking comrades.

[Papa C.]

thefiguresix said:

I was born and raised in a protestant community and im fucking red all the way!

Comrade, that's a great few posts you've wrote there. I agree with you 100% and find your views both progressive and forcing us to stand back and take a good look at ourselves. This kind of thinking that is, not just needed within the socialist community, but in fact is imperative to the success of socialism on the island. Socialism is a working class ideology and can't be claimed by religion or nation.


On the point of the PUP, I would like to engage with the PUP in the interest of the greater good. Although they are loyalist, they are also working class and have accepted this truth. As you pointed out, we don't want to alienate those living in loyalist areas or indeed loyalists themselves even. It might be a good idea to engage the party and try and come to a broadfront with them about what we DO agree on whilst building trust between organisations. What we don't agree on can be left on the back for a while but I can see some things clashing and these types of things, with loyalists, would have to handled extra sensitively.


I had an idea to start a weekly/ monthly publication for the SPI and I wonder could we pick up this issue in the publication somehow. Perhaps a 'spotlight on uniting the community' or 'unity issues' which would be dedicated to sharing stories about strides to unite the community? Or perhaps a supplement baring the title 'socialism requires the participation of all' or something.


I might create a draft publication first, print it out in low quality and see how it runs. When we have a good eye catching design we could work on the content. Would anyone be interested in getting involved with this?

[dangeresque]

thefiguresix said:

As for the construction of identity, i believe this is were the ulster scots tradition can play a part. If it could be accepted instead of berated it might just be saved from the the nationalistic grip of orangism. It provides a route to protestants coming to terms with their place in ireland and could ease the frustrations of the protestant identity crisis, which could only be a good thing.

I actually agree with you here. There's a very good IRSP article on this subject by Liam O Ruairc, about encouraging the community/ies in Ireland who identify with British culture to take up the more progressive aspects of that culture. Basically there is no reason we as republican socialists should be threatened by commuities who define themselves as non-Irish, whether they are Chinese, British or whatever.

There is quite a bit more to British culture than the Union Jack and the Queen. There are countless examples throughout British history to draw upon such as the Levellers (basically the first proto-communist movement in modern history), the early Labour Party, the history of British anti-fascism and international solidarity, we could go on all day.

There's also a great article in the most recent issue of Print, a graphic design industry journal about murals in the six, and how formerly Loyalist murals are being redefined to express Protestant culture in a way that's not sectarian. I should scan that for you all and post it along with the article by Comrade O Ruairc.

[RedFlag32]

That article by O'Ruairc is brilliant. Do you have its title comrade as i might have it here myself,just can't think of the name.

[Papa C.]

dangeresque said:

I should scan that for you all and post it along with the article by Comrade O Ruairc.

Please do taht would be great.