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Post by Papa C. on Aug 13, 2008 16:23:42 GMT
I think it shows the marginalisation of loyalist communities though as working class communities. I don't even think most loyalists support the British Government but have had their communities infiltrated by state forces and have nowhere to turn but back to the Britts to get some sort of protection.
Look at David Ervine of the PUP for instance. He was highly critical of the British Government, and was thrown in gaol by same, yet he still regarded himself as a loyalist. Why not a Republican or Socialist? It could have been because those in the PUP feared attacks by the provos (who I believe were also heavily infiltrated by state forces anyway. Considering where they came from, I don't see any other reason for them signing up to British rule other than them being directed by the British themselves. Most of their 'top men' are now being openly paid by the British Government) and saw them as a threat to the working class in loyalist areas.
Any army or revolutionary organisation should be made up of the residents themselves, the mothers, and Grand parents who understand how hard working class life can be rather than the hoods controlling the estates.
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Post by Hessian Peel on Sept 29, 2008 15:24:22 GMT
Found this pic a while back and thought it was very interesting how the loyalist community saw the republican community. As lefties I think the issues raised by this statement would have to be addressed in order to build trust between the ulster scots community and the left wing. Obviously this statement is directed at the provos and the provos have had a very documented history of having pockets of sectarianism within their ranks (as well as some very revolutionary people I might add) but I think it is important to understand where some in 'Loyalist' areas are coming from and I think this statement is very interesting in that respect. What do others think?  There can be no accommodation for Loyalism. They are our enemies; some people seem to forget that. |
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Post by Papa C. on Oct 4, 2008 20:40:12 GMT
The ignorant working class are not our enemies. Their only crime is their ignorance and we can't blame them for that, especially when they have been brainwashed by the most powerful force in the land - the Government.
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Post by dangeresque on Dec 16, 2008 5:46:01 GMT
But would it not be fair to say that their campaigns were a result or product of the troubles? I would think it is 'understandable' that armed struggle developed from the conditions that were present at the time. yeah, I don't think the Troubles were a mistake or an error, but an inevitable product of the society they came from. re the OP, the Loyalists are one of the most reactionary movements in the English-speaking world. the majority within Loyalism are not happy unless nationalists are brutalised and humbled. if a revolution must be made over their heads, so be it. |
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Post by thefiguresix on Jul 16, 2009 22:19:29 GMT
I would like to point out, especially to "anticapitalist", that there is another issue to take into consideration. Talk of protestant brainwashing can be taken out of context and appear very superior and a bit offensive, as if prods are somehow born with an aversion to socialist politics and a weak mind that makes them an easy target to become some sort of state zombies. The british empires greatest ever tactic anywhere was divide and conquer. The people of ireland were turned against EACH OTHER and both sides had a role to play in that. I grew up in a protestant family and a loyalist community. You have to understand the effect that the IRA campaign had on protestants.
( I hope that on a site like this with intelligent open debate I wont have to balance every single view, observation or opinion with the equal and opposite catholic /prod response. So I do understand that there were massive effects on the catholic population from the brit and loyalist campaign).
To put it a but crudely its was hard for me to take seriously the invitation to join a united irish brotherhood while the people extending the welcome were launching mortar bombs into my street. And although I have tried to move beyond that and explore what a united ireland has to offer, for most protestants it is that experience and viewpoint which needs to be addressed.
Then we look at the issue of the fundamentalism of loyalists and the lack of socialist and working class solidarity. I feel very strongly about this and I cannot express it strongly enough. This was my experience growing up. No socialist movement ever attemped to speak about the problems facing my community. No socialist representitive ever stood up for the poor and disspossesed in my community. No socialist movement ever showed me, my family or my community a single ounce of solidarity. No socialist movement ever asked for my help and support. No socialist movement ever attempted to instill ground up politics im my community or offer political insight and learning. As I grew up and took the lessons I had been taught by my parents and applied them in life I moved towards socialist attitudes and ideals in my life, but for years never became involved because first, the more I became aware and the more I began to take socialist ideals into the very core of my beliefs the more I felt I had been abandonded and betrayed. And second, for a long time I just wasnt welcome. I couldnt stand reading in every socialist worker and every leftist pamphlet just what murdering brit sacks of shit I and everyone I knew and grew up with were supposed to be. To me it always appeared that the socialist movement in northern ireland latched onto a national liberation movement as a way to ride on the back of the republican campaign and would rather cast a massive part of its people to the wolves than take on the far more difficult task of trying to understand and represent a multilayered and extremly complicated situation.
There is a great mistrust of socialism in protestant communities and that has had a profound effect on working class politics. History has shown that when you remove a communitys voice and they fail to find representation, they become radicalised and extreme and often cling to things like extreme idealist nationalistic identities. The working class protestant community is flailing around with nothing to anchor or ground it. Thats what makes it both so dangerous and a such a soft target.
Also I would like to add. I will not accept that I was born as some sort of obedient and well kicked dog to my british master. Further more anyone who tries to push that role onto me is as much my enemy and oppressor as any part of the british regime.
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Post by Papa C. on Jul 17, 2009 7:18:15 GMT
Comrade, I think it is refreshing to get an unrepentant protestant socialist who grew up in a loyalist community on this board. Even though you're not a loyalist, it forces us to step back and think about the loyalist community a little more. The majority of people who would be attracted to the type of board are angry young nationalists. I can't stand nationalism as they tend to support one oppressive Government but loath another oppressive Government. They also think that socialism is no good for the people without actually knowing what it is.
I think the socialists latching on to the nationalist campaign was more to do with the fact that both were against the Imperialist Government but I do take your point as I have noticed this myself.
Comrade, I look forward to discussing more with you regularly. I hope you stick around.
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